Kayak and Fishing Forum banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been looking for an overhead reel for a particular rod for some months now and maximum drag was a consideration as I wanted a little more than the other overhead I take out on the kayak just in case that wished for large king or snapper should happen along. Then last night I stumbled on an episode of Ifish that got me thinking. They were jigging Samsons in deep water and the amount of force required to pull these things up was amazing as the rods were in bucket belts and bending right through to the butt end.

This kind of effort wouldn't be possible on a kayak but it made me wonder what the limit would be and at what point having extra drag capability on a reel just wouldn't be worth anything. Some of you have caught some big / strong fish recently including tuna, mulloway, snapper, wahoo and even gummies. So what do you reckon the highest practical drag would be for an average kayak?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,383 Posts
Bob

You really need Carnster and co to reply, because they catch much bigger fish.

However, a couple of weeks ago I hooked an 11 kg tuna on a 7'6" Bluewater Ugly Stick, with a Penn 850 SSM loaded with 40 lb Platypus Platinum mono. I already had the drag setting quite high, courtesy of Sprocket. The strike on the high drag setting rocked the Hobie Adventure somewhat alarmingly.

BigKev, who was only 40 metres away on hookup, said, "Hurry up!" (his wife was onto him to be back in two hours), so I cranked the drag through the roof (is it 8 kg?), and landed the sucker in under 9 minutes.

I cannot imagine a drag setting much higher.
 
G

·
Unless you are anchored, you are just going to be towed by a fish while under heavy drag. Fighting a fish straight up and down on a yak under heavy drag is a mugs game in my opinion. Unless you keep the tip parallel to the yak, physics works against you and you'll be swimming in no time. It's much easier and safer to fight the fish under moderate drag from a distance, wear it out and bring it to the yak tired where its not going to cause any major dramas. Just my 2c.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,364 Posts
Hmm, good question and one I've pondered a few times, usually after getting a line snagged on something and the line wont break.

In my experience, trying to break 20lb line by hand is getting close to the limit but it depends on the angle of the line compared to the horizontal plane of the centre of gravity of the kayak. It also depends on the height of the line above the centre of gravity of the kayak.

Having just said that, I also reckon there's another variable and that is the speed that that limit is reached. When trying to break a line by hand you usually take up the slack and pull slow and steady for the obvious reason of not wanting to cut your hand, snap your rod with backlash, end up in the drink when the line breaks, hit yourself in the head with a sinker/hook coming back up at you at a rapid rate of knots!

When a fish takes your line, that first run can be much faster than what you can achieve by hand and it can continue until you're spooled, not just for as long as your arm can reach in the scenario of trying to break it by hand.

So, in my experience, and with me having come up with the above theory in my head, I reckon 30lb must be close to the ball park. I base that on not having had too many bust offs with that size line but having had quite a few with 20lb. That's not to say I haven't had the hooks or rings pulled off lures but that weight of drag must be getting close to what you could achieve with an outback.

Another variable would be how much drag your hull has at that particular angle I suppose.

There are plenty of guys using 50lb line so maybe I'm way off the mark with this reply too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,839 Posts
Righto i will have a go at this. I use 80lb braid on the big cobes and jew and i have been dusted plenty but have landed many on the heavy and also on the light gear (30lb braid/trace) with light drag but it does take a while. I took my dad out recently and got him onto a big jew but it reefed him after 25mins on 30lb.
When you have been dusted a few times you tend too get a bit trigger happy. I have locked up on big fish and been dusted/ almost been pulled in. It is a very dangerous thing and i would n't advise it. But if you do have heavy drag then keep the rod close to you and pointed straight forward parallel to your yak and to the side with your arm that holds the rod. This technique will minimise any leverage and gives you a good platform to lock up on the big ones. Heavy drag is not usually required nor recommended with mackeral,tuna, hoo etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
Having a little bit of game fishing experience, my thoughts are this - when it comes to pelagic fish like Tuna, Wahoo, Marlin, you don't need a lot of drag.
These fish do not reef you like Kings or Samson, so you only require enough drag to set the hook.

I have caught Marlin (from a boat) in excess of 100kg on 10 kg line class gear, that equates to about to 4 kg's strike drag, so not a lot at all.
There's rarely a need to increase the drag to get the fish. Admittedly, there's about a kilometer of line on the reel, and if the angler and skipper can work well together,
it isn't that hard to land a large fish on light line (light drag), and a good skipper can make the fight a lot shorter.

So to try to answer your question, 3-4 kilos of drag is workable for many pelagics (comes down to how much line and time you have), I haven't fought a big king from a kayak,
but Jews can be fought on light gear (haven't done it but plentiful reports exist)

If your question is purely about kings, then that is tricky, and it isn't just about drag, but also appropriate line and leader strength,
if you do get reefed what strength leader can you break from the yak? Or are you happy to cut off 50m of line?
You are somewhat limited by your fishing platform, too much drag will get you wet, too little will get you reefed.

Personally I wouldn't want to have a rod set with more than 3 kg's strike drag on a yak.
During the fight, I might feel comfortable to increase it, but it all depends on the yak and the angler.

Cheers, Jeff

*edit - 3kg's is far more appropriate for kayak fishing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,210 Posts
Heaviest outfit I take out is 30lb braid with 60lb leader. If snagged the only way I have found to break it off is to point the rod down, clamp the spool and peddle away. That gear has got me a few decent kings (biggest 113cm) so see no need to go heavier and wouldn't feel safe doing so. Then again we don't see too many Carnster sized fish in Sydney.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,221 Posts
nezevic said:
It's much easier and safer to fight the fish under moderate drag from a distance, wear it out and bring it to the yak tired where its not going to cause any major dramas. Just my 2c.
But...
The beauty of, advantage by, difference in [pick one] kayak/small craft fishing is that you are bringing yourself to the fish, rather than vice versa. You will invariable end up fighting straight up and down. The larger the fish, the longer it will take to get up and down but it will eventually happen. Also the larger the fish the less likely you are to bring it to you. The only large fish that didn't act like a large fish for me has been a sail. It just went apeshit on the surface for a long time, and didn't run hard. I really didn't want anything to do with it in that mean time. Eventually it tired and I winched myself to it for the release.

Sorry OP. Drags. I don't quantify drags other than by pulling out by hand and guessing. I never use more than 40lb test as the weakest link on a yak. I've found 40 is the most I can break off the bottom if I'm snagged. Best way is to get right atop the snag, take a couple wraps around something solid (pliers) and pull straight up, not across you. You will save wear and tear on your equipment this way versus putting it in the holder and pedalling away. I've seen even flush mount holders rip out that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,307 Posts
indiedog said:
In future when I hook a good fish I will throw out my drogue to get more "kayak drag" in the water. This should bring the drag on the reel more into play.
Indie although I can see the benefit of using a drogue to increase resistance, why not drop a leg over either side of the yak, would give you some water drag and possibly improve stability by lowering your centre of gravity a touch, either foot angled down will also give you some steerage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,221 Posts
salticrak said:
indiedog said:
Dodge said:
Indie although I can see the benefit of using a drogue to increase resistance, why not drop a leg over either side of the yak, would give you some water drag and possibly improve stability by lowering your centre of gravity a touch, either foot angled down will also give you some steerage.
Dodge, not a bad idea to try, more for the drag than stability. I find once I've got the rod in hand I don't have any stability issues, they mainly happen at strike time. I'm mainly thinking of the tuna for this as those suckers can drag you all over the place.
You need to catch big fish to have to worry about using a drogue dawg.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
carnster said:
... also on the light gear (30lb braid/trace)
Love your idea of "light" Carnster - the heaviest line I've ever used is 20lb mono :lol: .

Some interesting replies there and it looks like the 3 - 5 kg is right for most people most of the time with extra needed for certain species like kings.

Indie, why are lever drags easier to adjust? I've never used one but can't see why they would be any different to the other type.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
labrat said:
carnster said:
... also on the light gear (30lb braid/trace)
Love your idea of "light" Carnster - the heaviest line I've ever used is 20lb mono :lol: .

Some interesting replies there and it looks like the 3 - 5 kg is right for most people most of the time with extra needed for certain species like kings.

Indie, why are lever drags easier to adjust? I've never used one but can't see why they would be any different to the other type.
It is because (at least with game reels) there are three positions, freespool, strike and sunset.
Using drag scales allows you to set strike drag to a precise value.

So with say a 15kg class reel such as a TLD30 you would set strike drag to around 5kg.
If you haven't seen one of these reels, there is a button that stops the drag lever - this is the strike drag position,
to increase the drag, you have to push the button in before you can move the lever further.

So the point is that you always have the lever pushed up to the button (or sometimes just below it) to be at or near strike drag,
so you know where it is set. With spinning reel drags, there is no way to easily set the drag to a known amount.

Next time you are in a tackle shop, get the staff to show you how a game reel works - much easier if you see it in operation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
That's a pretty good explanation Jeffen, thanks. Hope to be picking up a reel in the next few days so will have an opportunity to look at the game reels as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,600 Posts
This thread is all over the issue.

I reckon 5-8kg is about all you can get when fighting pelagics. And that's pushing it. Ultimately the drag you can use is about the kayak that you are skull dragging to the fish.

If jigging, or chasing big fish that dive, max drag is limited by your safety in the kayak. Excessive drag settings and a deep big fish are amusing. In swell the fish (shark, whatever) stays where it is, the drag hold the yak in a relative position, and the swell goes over the top. It feels like you just hooked jaws and the yak is being dragged underwater.

Experienced this once. VERY careful with drag settings ever since. 5-8kg feels ridiculous, I start lighter, you can always push the lever or ward during the fight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,839 Posts
dru said:
This thread is all over the issue.

I reckon 5-8kg is about all you can get when fighting pelagics. And that's pushing it. Ultimately the drag you can use is about the kayak that you are skull dragging to the fish.

If jigging, or chasing big fish that dive, max drag is limited by your safety in the kayak. Excessive drag settings and a deep big fish are amusing. In swell the fish (shark, whatever) stays where it is, the drag hold the yak in a relative position, and the swell goes over the top. It feels like you just hooked jaws and the yak is being dragged underwater.

Experienced this once. VERY careful with drag settings ever since. 5-8kg feels ridiculous, I start lighter, you can always push the lever or ward during the fight.
Yeah i have had that before a few times. Once i thought a cobe was going to pull me and my yak to far under the water.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,839 Posts
labrat said:
carnster said:
... also on the light gear (30lb braid/trace)
Love your idea of "light" Carnster - the heaviest line I've ever used is 20lb mono :lol: .

Some interesting replies there and it looks like the 3 - 5 kg is right for most people most of the time with extra needed for certain species like kings.

Indie, why are lever drags easier to adjust? I've never used one but can't see why they would be any different to the other type.
Yeah i agree a lever drag would be the go, i generally have mi jig master set so that i don't have to muck around with trying to lock it up when i am on. You can't give a big cobe or jew an inch or they will reef you. The only problem is that it is like a bomb ready to go off and if you are not ready in braced position with rod in hand it will pull you down or tip you straight over.

I agree 30 lb is not particularly light but on any meter plus jew or 1.3m+ cobe it is pretty tough to land them out of the reef. Plus a big jew will sheer thru 30lb leader pretty easily if hooked inside the mouth and loose drag is mandatory but very tense.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,383 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,707 Posts
A lot of great advice in this thread!

For what it's worth in the context of not much success with the kingies I feel 3kg is my maximum drag setting for a rod in a rodholder eg deadsticking or trolling. I can fight fish with the rod in my hand and both feet in the water to balance comfortably with up to around 6kg drag. This is with the kingfish heading straight down and pulling drag, not towing me around. I find longer rods around 7 foot handle higher drag settings in a more forgiving way than shorter 5 to 6 foot rods. I like the lever drags which I only use for kingfish and jew at 3kg drag in the rod-holder with strike drag at 6kg, makes it a bit hard to get the rod out of the holder but I've been reefed in 3 seconds flat a few times on lighter drags. The spinning reels are set at 2kg, 3kg, 4.5kg, and 6kg with the 2 higher drag settings used for casting and jigging for pelagics as the rods are already in the hand and in front of me when the fish bite. The 2kg and 3kg are for snapper.

Using baits, live or dead, for kings has been my biggest headache as the rod is usually in the holder when they strike and at 3kg drag it's just not enough to worry the keeper kings so I usually end up wrestling the rod out of the holder just as the leader goes ping on the reef. I like to cast around with a plastic or a squid strip on a jighead or sometimes drop a jig while the baited line trails behind as I'm too impatient to fish while holding just the one baited line. From what Chris is saying it seems that that's where I'm going wrong, I should just hold the baited line at 6kg drag and wait for the bite or "bomb" to go off :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
SharkNett said:
Heaviest outfit I take out is 30lb braid with 60lb leader. If snagged the only way I have found to break it off is to point the rod down, clamp the spool and peddle away.

yes 15kg is the heaviest ill go tried 25kg & got a new hat ( :lol: a big yellow plastic one :lol: )re breaking off if snagged for example I wrap a few turns round my lip grips & with both hands pull from about waist level towards chest keeping the lip grips central to my body for when it gives.

Nigel
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top