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Sweden did give me the vibe of absolute zero integration. It was rare to see people of different races associating in a social setting. It was noticeable enough that commented on it within hours of being in Stockholm. Sweden as a whole has a strange vibe.
Australia's really not doing to bad in the scheme of things, and to be honest, Europe and America are very different kettles of fish to here. We don't really have a deep rooted culture, and the things we do base our culture on like sporting prowess are among the easiest ways for migrants to expand outside of their own culture.
Australia's really not doing to bad in the scheme of things, and to be honest, Europe and America are very different kettles of fish to here. We don't really have a deep rooted culture, and the things we do base our culture on like sporting prowess are among the easiest ways for migrants to expand outside of their own culture.
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I think that trouble could be brewing. The more extreme acts there are, the less chance there is for everyone to live together nicely.
It does make life more difficult for those people within a minority group to get treated like anyone else if some vocal exponents of their religion, ethnic or social group go out of their way to commit horrible acts to get public attention.
I haven't been following the news but I hope that the peaceful Muslims have been reacting with fury & outrage at the guys who attacked the British soldier. If it had been some idiot that had have stood up & said "I am white male which is why I did this", there would certainly be an intense reaction & people disasociating themselves from the wanker.
For me, it's all the more justification for my being an atheist. Religion seems to divide people more than bring them together. I prefer the view that we are all just complicated monkeys without any race or creed being inately superior or inferior. I'd prefer to judge people on their actions.
If I am honest, I can't say I start with no prejudices though, eg when I was growing up, I lived in a housing commission area where there were more aboriginals than any other group. Most of them caused trouble, started fights, threw bricks through our windows, etc. Can't say that I was a fan of aboriginals back then but there were a couple of guys at school that were just like any regular guy & happened to be aboriginal. They didn't live in one of the areas you would normally associate with aboriginals & I heard through the grapevine that their parents were very strict about them behaving properly. These guys got along with people OK & their race was not an issue. The aboriginals that misbehaved & extended invitations to come out to Purfleet so that they could break your legs for you certainly didn't do these guys any favours though. The trouble makers made me a bit more wary & cautious about accepting the guys that behaved like anyone else.
Don't know what it is like in Europe but have heard that in some places, like Japan there is still very much a strong culture of us & them with very strong prejudice against non-Japanese. Don't know if it more the older generation or not.
I don't know what the solution is other than education & trying to get people to think for themselves but that is only a long term solution.
It does make life more difficult for those people within a minority group to get treated like anyone else if some vocal exponents of their religion, ethnic or social group go out of their way to commit horrible acts to get public attention.
I haven't been following the news but I hope that the peaceful Muslims have been reacting with fury & outrage at the guys who attacked the British soldier. If it had been some idiot that had have stood up & said "I am white male which is why I did this", there would certainly be an intense reaction & people disasociating themselves from the wanker.
For me, it's all the more justification for my being an atheist. Religion seems to divide people more than bring them together. I prefer the view that we are all just complicated monkeys without any race or creed being inately superior or inferior. I'd prefer to judge people on their actions.
If I am honest, I can't say I start with no prejudices though, eg when I was growing up, I lived in a housing commission area where there were more aboriginals than any other group. Most of them caused trouble, started fights, threw bricks through our windows, etc. Can't say that I was a fan of aboriginals back then but there were a couple of guys at school that were just like any regular guy & happened to be aboriginal. They didn't live in one of the areas you would normally associate with aboriginals & I heard through the grapevine that their parents were very strict about them behaving properly. These guys got along with people OK & their race was not an issue. The aboriginals that misbehaved & extended invitations to come out to Purfleet so that they could break your legs for you certainly didn't do these guys any favours though. The trouble makers made me a bit more wary & cautious about accepting the guys that behaved like anyone else.
Don't know what it is like in Europe but have heard that in some places, like Japan there is still very much a strong culture of us & them with very strong prejudice against non-Japanese. Don't know if it more the older generation or not.
I don't know what the solution is other than education & trying to get people to think for themselves but that is only a long term solution.
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Hegelian Theory
According to German philosopher Georg Hegel, historical developments follow three basic laws called a dialectic, or a process in which a conflict between two extremes is resolved. First, Hegel asserted that each historical event follows a necessary course; in other words, it could not have happened in any other way. Second, each event represents not only change but progress. Finally, one historical event, or phase, tends to be replaced by its opposite, which is later replaced by a resolution of the two extremes. This third law of Hegel's dialectic is the "pendulum theory," which has long been discussed by scholars and students of history-that events swing from one extreme to the other before the pendulum comes to rest at middle. The extreme phases are called the thesis and the antithesis; the resolution is called the synthesis.
Question is what will the synthesis be?
According to German philosopher Georg Hegel, historical developments follow three basic laws called a dialectic, or a process in which a conflict between two extremes is resolved. First, Hegel asserted that each historical event follows a necessary course; in other words, it could not have happened in any other way. Second, each event represents not only change but progress. Finally, one historical event, or phase, tends to be replaced by its opposite, which is later replaced by a resolution of the two extremes. This third law of Hegel's dialectic is the "pendulum theory," which has long been discussed by scholars and students of history-that events swing from one extreme to the other before the pendulum comes to rest at middle. The extreme phases are called the thesis and the antithesis; the resolution is called the synthesis.
Question is what will the synthesis be?
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If multiculturism has a chance surely it's in Australia. Relatively spacious and relatively wealthy and relatively open minded.
I think success comes with finding commonality within humanity. For this to happen the society we live should be structured to allow interactions with people of other cultural origins. Workplace is a common one. Schools and sporting groups.
The other ingredient is slow change. Any rapid flux in populations is sure to end in social discourse.
I think success comes with finding commonality within humanity. For this to happen the society we live should be structured to allow interactions with people of other cultural origins. Workplace is a common one. Schools and sporting groups.
The other ingredient is slow change. Any rapid flux in populations is sure to end in social discourse.
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·Any more than the original owners of the land?Digger said:
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I think in years to come Australia will be held up as an example of how to manage the inevitable. Greece gave the world democracy and Australia is giving the world a workable (if imperfect) multiculturalism.
My father was anglo-australian, my mum came over in the 70's as an immigrant from Argentina. My wife is Chinese Australian and my kids are mongrels. When I was a kid we had nothing but my own nuclear family has slugged it out made something for ourselves. I eat chinese dumplings on Sunday, drink Coopers beer on Saturday and make an Argentine asado on the first weekend of every month. I buy my Italian Latte from the Koreans at the cornershop who see me off with a "ave a good one" every morning. I get my teeth done by a batshit crazy serb dentist and my family doctor is a 3rd generation Italian Australian. The goalkeeper and entire back line of my wog-ball soccer team are as ocker as they come and my grandfather had a triple bypass pioneered by the great Australian Victor Chang and my dughter has cochlear implants invented by the descendent of a convinct.
When I clean the garlic sauce off my chin from this brilliant Kebab I'll tell you more about how good multiculturalism can be.
I would think that inner city "latte sippers" would have a much greater grasp on the daily realities of multiculturalism than country folk, but still less than those who live in the suburban donuts of our major urban centres. These people could hardly be considered "latte sippers" in the full context of the pigeon hole.salticrak said:
My father was anglo-australian, my mum came over in the 70's as an immigrant from Argentina. My wife is Chinese Australian and my kids are mongrels. When I was a kid we had nothing but my own nuclear family has slugged it out made something for ourselves. I eat chinese dumplings on Sunday, drink Coopers beer on Saturday and make an Argentine asado on the first weekend of every month. I buy my Italian Latte from the Koreans at the cornershop who see me off with a "ave a good one" every morning. I get my teeth done by a batshit crazy serb dentist and my family doctor is a 3rd generation Italian Australian. The goalkeeper and entire back line of my wog-ball soccer team are as ocker as they come and my grandfather had a triple bypass pioneered by the great Australian Victor Chang and my dughter has cochlear implants invented by the descendent of a convinct.
When I clean the garlic sauce off my chin from this brilliant Kebab I'll tell you more about how good multiculturalism can be.
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Australia is pretty multicultural. My family is a bit diverse too.
My son is half asian. His mother has a Spanish surname & likes to try & talk up any tenuous Spanish heritage she might have.
I have a nephew with enough aboriginal blood in him to qualify, (one of my sister's 8 kids) who is gay & now living in LA.
I have a half brother with ADD who is also believed to have a bit of sneaky aboriginal blood in him.
Another of my half brothers is married to a Chinese girl.
Another of the half brothers has had a kid by a half German, half Tongan girl.
I am a red head with some English, Scottish, Irish & Italian heritage. My ancestors founded Little Italy on the NSW North coast.
There is even more I could tell that is not related to race but if I said any more I think I would start receiving calls from Jerry Springer! :lol:
My son is half asian. His mother has a Spanish surname & likes to try & talk up any tenuous Spanish heritage she might have.
I have a nephew with enough aboriginal blood in him to qualify, (one of my sister's 8 kids) who is gay & now living in LA.
I have a half brother with ADD who is also believed to have a bit of sneaky aboriginal blood in him.
Another of my half brothers is married to a Chinese girl.
Another of the half brothers has had a kid by a half German, half Tongan girl.
I am a red head with some English, Scottish, Irish & Italian heritage. My ancestors founded Little Italy on the NSW North coast.
There is even more I could tell that is not related to race but if I said any more I think I would start receiving calls from Jerry Springer! :lol:
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A lot of wisdom being expressed here. (Kraley, punchanello).
Good people can have racist views. My mother in law frequently expresses racists view. She is a country lass and therefore have not had the opportunity to meet many immigrants . Her access to information about immigrants in our country is from the media. There lies the problem.
I have played weekend cricket for about 8 seasons and only once did I have a racist slur against me. I think that's is something to be proud. We are by enlarge an accepting society. My best reply to this guy was to hit him for six over his head :lol:
I think if people have anti immigration views, they should feel free to express them. I have lived my life hearing this debate my whole life. Comes up every election. Felt alienating growing up because you didn't feel welcome. Many people who have this view are racists, and unfortunately then everyone who expresses anti immigration views are liable to be labelled as racist. I do not agree with this. This is akin to someone expressing views re the environment being called a greenie.
Reading views expressed in this topic makes me even more hopeful. My kids generation will hopefully be better than my generation.
Who would have thought fisherman could have such thoughtful insights into our society?
Must be because we fish from kayaks and not stinkas! ;-)
Good people can have racist views. My mother in law frequently expresses racists view. She is a country lass and therefore have not had the opportunity to meet many immigrants . Her access to information about immigrants in our country is from the media. There lies the problem.
I have played weekend cricket for about 8 seasons and only once did I have a racist slur against me. I think that's is something to be proud. We are by enlarge an accepting society. My best reply to this guy was to hit him for six over his head :lol:
I think if people have anti immigration views, they should feel free to express them. I have lived my life hearing this debate my whole life. Comes up every election. Felt alienating growing up because you didn't feel welcome. Many people who have this view are racists, and unfortunately then everyone who expresses anti immigration views are liable to be labelled as racist. I do not agree with this. This is akin to someone expressing views re the environment being called a greenie.
Reading views expressed in this topic makes me even more hopeful. My kids generation will hopefully be better than my generation.
Who would have thought fisherman could have such thoughtful insights into our society?
Must be because we fish from kayaks and not stinkas! ;-)
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There was one more awesome thing I forgot about multiculturalism. The women.
Like every colour of the rainbow. It's like being in a lolly shop. And that's before we get on to the hybrid vigour of mixed ethnicity. VaVaVooom.
Like every colour of the rainbow. It's like being in a lolly shop. And that's before we get on to the hybrid vigour of mixed ethnicity. VaVaVooom.
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Have heard many immigrants express what could be termed anti-immigrant views. Usually they revolve around immigrants that don't have to earn their way into the country, bypass normal immigration procedure, don't try & work when they get here or commit crimes after they have immigrated.
The most common reason that these views are expressed is because it makes things more difficult for the immigrants that went through the correct process to bring their families into Australia.
It's a complex issue. It's a pity that everyone around the world is not at least reasonably happy with where they live. You don't to keep people out that might be subject to atrocities in their country but you don't want to cause social issues in your own & make Australia a horrible place for your kids to live in.
I think that controlled immigration is the best answer we have. There are always going to be some problems with the rules around who you let in & who you keep out though.
I imagine it is much tougher in Europe because of the proximity to a lot of under-privileged countries & so many different ethnic groups with a long cultural history, some which includes some groups hating each other.
I remember at one stage there was an earthquake in Turkey. Greece sent some troops over to try & help rescue people buried under rubble & there were reports of some Turks saying that they would rather die than be rescued by a Greek.
I had a Serbian friend & Croatian friend in uni. They both said that the other group rape babies & they absolutely hated what they considered to be the other race. The female Croat then had a huge family crisis because there was some question as to whether her favourite uncle might have some sneaky Serbian blood in him. If he did, they would have to hate him & never see him again.
These sorts of ideas are totally foreign to most Aussies, (no pun intended) but they do exist.
My personal hope is that in the distant future we all end up being a world society of educated brindle atheists who judge things & people on their merits. I am doing my part. I have made my brindle baby! ;-)
If we could take the good parts from each culture & discard the bad, the world would a much more interesting & fun place.
The most common reason that these views are expressed is because it makes things more difficult for the immigrants that went through the correct process to bring their families into Australia.
It's a complex issue. It's a pity that everyone around the world is not at least reasonably happy with where they live. You don't to keep people out that might be subject to atrocities in their country but you don't want to cause social issues in your own & make Australia a horrible place for your kids to live in.
I think that controlled immigration is the best answer we have. There are always going to be some problems with the rules around who you let in & who you keep out though.
I imagine it is much tougher in Europe because of the proximity to a lot of under-privileged countries & so many different ethnic groups with a long cultural history, some which includes some groups hating each other.
I remember at one stage there was an earthquake in Turkey. Greece sent some troops over to try & help rescue people buried under rubble & there were reports of some Turks saying that they would rather die than be rescued by a Greek.
I had a Serbian friend & Croatian friend in uni. They both said that the other group rape babies & they absolutely hated what they considered to be the other race. The female Croat then had a huge family crisis because there was some question as to whether her favourite uncle might have some sneaky Serbian blood in him. If he did, they would have to hate him & never see him again.
These sorts of ideas are totally foreign to most Aussies, (no pun intended) but they do exist.
My personal hope is that in the distant future we all end up being a world society of educated brindle atheists who judge things & people on their merits. I am doing my part. I have made my brindle baby! ;-)
If we could take the good parts from each culture & discard the bad, the world would a much more interesting & fun place.
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Interesting to read Punchy's reply and those hailing him for it.
How many of you have actually lived in rural areas?
Of course city people are more multicultural, we all know rural people are inbred hicks right????
People never segregate in the cities right? There's no such thing as "China town" or whatever.
But the idea that rural people could be as multicultural as city people? Pffft. Anyone that thinks so just because they've lived in both areas must be an imbecile.
How many of you have actually lived in rural areas?
Of course city people are more multicultural, we all know rural people are inbred hicks right????
People never segregate in the cities right? There's no such thing as "China town" or whatever.
But the idea that rural people could be as multicultural as city people? Pffft. Anyone that thinks so just because they've lived in both areas must be an imbecile.
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I never suggested country people were inbred hicks, any more than all people in the city being deluded "latte sippers".Junglefisher said:
The Australian Bureau of Statistics says urban centres are vastly more multicultural than the country. Yet the angst about multiculturalism in the country is much higher than in the city.
My post was that I think I understand what living in a truly multicultural environment is like and I quite enjoy it. I've lived in places like Sydney's inner south west which is probably the worst example of multiculturalism that this country has had and I'm still not turned off it.
Chinatowns are great btw. They are a great place to buy stuff you can't get anywhere else and perve on hawt azn birds.
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