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Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby imnotoriginal » Sun May 20, 2012 5:32 pm

Im looking at getting a slightly heavier spin outfit. It needs to be something fairly versatile and I'm looking at it being able to handle roughly 30lb line, but to be able to go a little heavier at need. After a few years in the rivers I've started going out wider with the boys and the allure of bigger fish has bitten hard.

For the rod, I have been looking at travel rods. I already have a few in smaller sizes and the convenience of having something that breaks down to such a small size is marvellous. I've also been able to break them down when coming back in and they have then been stored in the hull of the boat. It's not so much 'if' but rather 'when' I will tip my kayak coming back in, so I think this is a good way of protecting my rods.

http://www.addictiveangler.com/store-fr ... -for-sale/

This is my pick of the rods so far. I have their permit spin model and the rod feels good, holds up well under pressure and breaks down well. It also comes with its own rod tube which fits snugly and makes packing it for trips very simple. The price is good and it seems to tick the other boxes. My only concern is the length, 8 foot seems quite long for a rod on a kayak? Would this be an issue? It also seems slightly heavier for strength than I was looking for, but I think I could handle that.

For the reel, I'm having issues deciding what to go with. Having seen the recent thread on the van staals, and the current price at mo tackle, it looks a very attractive option. The reviews on its durability and water resistance a very appealing, as I need this to be an outfit that lasts if I am going to outlay this much money.

http://www.motackle.com.au/index.cfm?pr ... ct_id=8164

My only concern here is that perhaps this reel will be too light for the rod I'm putting it on. The rod is rated 20lb-50lb but the reel maxes out for drag pressure at 15kg.

Any thoughts on this setup? Does anyone use a rod that long off their kayak? Would the van staal be too light for this rod? Any other suggestions? Thanks,

Joel
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby kayakone » Sun May 20, 2012 6:29 pm

Joel

I'm not really into offshore, like Paulo and others, thought the lure of it is enticing, but 15 kg of drag in a reel seems like a lot of drag for a kayak. At way less drag pressure, a big fish is simply going to tow your yak around, isn't it? Realistically, I would have thought that 7 - 10 kg of drag might be closer to the maximum pressure you might be able to put onto a fish from a yak. ??

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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby imnotoriginal » Sun May 20, 2012 6:39 pm

kayakone wrote:Joel

I'm not really into offshore, like Paulo and others, thought the lure of it is enticing, but 15 kg of drag in a reel seems like a lot of drag for a kayak. At way less drag pressure, a big fish is simply going to tow your yak around, isn't it? Realistically, I would have thought that 7 - 10 kg of drag might be closer to the maximum pressure you might be able to put onto a fish from a yak. ??

Trevor


A fair point and you're probably right. It probably is more than I need for the kayak, but I do want something heavier for land based fishing as well. I have some heavier overheads and I find that I rarely get to use them because the inability to cast them means their applications are limited. The current setup I'm using is 10-25lb rated, but isn't really hardy enough for use at the top end of that range over time. This setup is designed to cover a fair but of ground for me.
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby skorgard » Mon May 21, 2012 6:51 am

A medium overhead eg ABU 7000 might do. It will cast well, handle some drag and it is so easy to put a bit extra pressure on with the thumb.
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby imnotoriginal » Mon May 21, 2012 5:47 pm

skorgard wrote:A medium overhead eg ABU 7000 might do. It will cast well, handle some drag and it is so easy to put a bit extra pressure on with the thumb.


Casting overheads is not in my repertoire unfortunately :? . I stick to threadlines and sidecasts. Thanks for the suggestion though.
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby scater » Mon May 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Maximum drag pressure isn't really the issue, it's the workable range of pressures. You'd rarely want to be completely buttoned down, drags work better in the 25-75% of max range. Therefore, if you did want to be putting 7-10kg of pressure on a fish you're better off running it on a reel that's capable of more rather than tightening up a smaller reel to max to achieve it.
Cheers, Sam

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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby Iseered » Mon May 21, 2012 7:45 pm

Imnotoriginal,
To comment on the concern (?) about rod length, I can only say that from my experience that while the longer rod dose make those longer casts more achievable, they can make landing a good fish awkward. You may want to consider a shorter rod for the sorts of drag pressures your looking at because the longer the rod the longer the leaver. Remember why short stroke rods came about? In a kayak situation the longer rod may work against you having a stable fishing platform. IMO :twisted:
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby imnotoriginal » Tue May 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Iseered wrote:Imnotoriginal,
To comment on the concern (?) about rod length, I can only say that from my experience that while the longer rod dose make those longer casts more achievable, they can make landing a good fish awkward. You may want to consider a shorter rod for the sorts of drag pressures your looking at because the longer the rod the longer the leaver. Remember why short stroke rods came about? In a kayak situation the longer rod may work against you having a stable fishing platform. IMO :twisted:


This was my concern with the rod unfortunately. They don't seem to have a rod in their range which covers around 30lb lines and is around 7 foot, which is my preferred length for overall versatility.

nezevic wrote:There is no way you'll be able to put 15kg of drag on a fish from the yak. Well whilst staying in the boat anyway. Eyetag in the noosa yakkers has a van staal and he seems very happy with it. I'm not sure if he is on here but a message to Sunshiner would quickly answer that.


I wasn't expecting to put that much drag pressure on the fish, but I do want something that I can use for heavier applications off the kayak as well. I do like the Van Staal at that price, but I need to find a rod that can match this.

scater wrote:Maximum drag pressure isn't really the issue, it's the workable range of pressures. You'd rarely want to be completely buttoned down, drags work better in the 25-75% of max range. Therefore, if you did want to be putting 7-10kg of pressure on a fish you're better off running it on a reel that's capable of more rather than tightening up a smaller reel to max to achieve it.

Agreed!
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby fishingbay » Tue May 22, 2012 7:49 pm

hey
Have you had a look at the shimano tcurve revolution series,They have heavy 15-24kg spin rods and lots of different rods in the series.They are 3 piece and have some great reviews on them and well priced.heres a link for themhttp://www.rayannes.com.au/daiwa-shimano-reels-australia/rods-reels/shimano/shimano-rods/shimano-tcurve-revolution-rod-series-from-only-139-to-199/
cheers Billy :D
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby paulo » Wed May 23, 2012 7:21 am

Joel if the majority of your fishing is around Moffats then a 30lb outfit will be too heavy for casting. To be successful on the pelagics around here you need to match the predominate bait. Thats white bait and means more often than not you wont be casting anything heavier than a 20g slug or a 3\8oz jighead.

I just setup a mate for out there recently and IMO you need a 20lb (6-8kg) casting stick and a 30lb trolling stick. I carry additional rods for lighter bottom bashing as well but two rods keeps things nice and simple when the brown comes to town cos your tangled in y9our second line with 15kgs of angry longtail on the end of the line.

On the 20lb outfit a 3500-4000 reel (higher gear ratio the better), 20lb braid and 25-40lb leader. I would go for a 7' rod to give you casting distance but you will struggle a little when they get closer to the boat. A fair trade off I think. (eg Daiwa Seagate Light 3500 on a Nitro Viper)

The 30lb outfit is a 4500\5000 reel, 30lb braid on a 10-15kg jig stick, 40-80lb leader. I find any stick heavier than 10-15kg starts to put more hurt on me than on the fish. The shorter jig stick makes the battle much easier and gives you a better situation for trolling two lures. ie. put the shallow diver on the 7' rod out the back and a deep diver on the shorter rod up tight to the boat. It all but eliminates tangling when turning whilst trolling. (eg. Van Staal VM150 on a Daiwa Monster Mesh\ SHimano TCurve 200 jig stick.)

I bought a VM150 a month back and landed six longtails on that rod over the past few weeks on 20lb on a Nitro Godzilla. At 7' I felt the longtails were harder to tail grab than the ones I landed on my 6' jig stick but having the 20lb VM150 on a 7' rod gave me a second, heavier casting option in addition to the smaller 20lb stick. ( I carry 3 rods normally)

Rather than graphite travel rods you could go fibreglass on your trolling stick and just strap it to the side of the yak coming in. Graphite can be fairly fragile rolling round in the hull with your other kit when your in the surf zone.

On drag, Ill wager most dont fight the fish with more than 4-5kg (most likely 2-3kg) for fear of losing the fish due to poor knots or pulling the hooks from the fish's mouth. Your kayak plays a major role in fighting the fish. Point the nose towards the fish and it will tow you km out whilst not working too hard. Use your pedals to turn the OB side on and the fish works a whole lot harder without adding additional strain on your expensive gear. I also use the pedals to get in front of the fish and turn its head throughout the fight. This confuses them and allows you to fight the fish in a 500m square. During the final circling stage I then use the pedals to plane the fish up in the water column when I cant apply enough pressure with the lighter gear to bring the fish to the surface. AT this point, rather than tightening the drag and risk losing the fish on its final burst of energy, I back it off a bit and palm the spool when lifting the fish. By dropping the rod tip and lightening the palm pressure on the spool you can deal with the fishes final bursts of strength without giving up line and allowing them to gain confidence.

See you on the water.
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby billpatt » Wed May 23, 2012 9:40 am

I have a Shimano Sienna 4000 reel that matches up really well to a Wilson Pelagic Spin rod 7ft. I can cast a slug around 50m, and it has landed some smaller pedros (70-90cm) and my PB spot of 98cm this year.
Handled all these fish like a dream. I have it spooled with 15lb line and 20lb leader. All this for $150.
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby imnotoriginal » Wed May 23, 2012 11:54 am

paulo wrote:Joel if the majority of your fishing is around Moffats then a 30lb outfit will be too heavy for casting. To be successful on the pelagics around here you need to match the predominate bait. Thats white bait and means more often than not you wont be casting anything heavier than a 20g slug or a 3\8oz jighead.

I just setup a mate for out there recently and IMO you need a 20lb (6-8kg) casting stick and a 30lb trolling stick. I carry additional rods for lighter bottom bashing as well but two rods keeps things nice and simple when the brown comes to town cos your tangled in y9our second line with 15kgs of angry longtail on the end of the line.

On the 20lb outfit a 3500-4000 reel (higher gear ratio the better), 20lb braid and 25-40lb leader. I would go for a 7' rod to give you casting distance but you will struggle a little when they get closer to the boat. A fair trade off I think. (eg Daiwa Seagate Light 3500 on a Nitro Viper)

The 30lb outfit is a 4500\5000 reel, 30lb braid on a 10-15kg jig stick, 40-80lb leader. I find any stick heavier than 10-15kg starts to put more hurt on me than on the fish. The shorter jig stick makes the battle much easier and gives you a better situation for trolling two lures. ie. put the shallow diver on the 7' rod out the back and a deep diver on the shorter rod up tight to the boat. It all but eliminates tangling when turning whilst trolling. (eg. Van Staal VM150 on a Daiwa Monster Mesh\ SHimano TCurve 200 jig stick.)

I bought a VM150 a month back and landed six longtails on that rod over the past few weeks on 20lb on a Nitro Godzilla. At 7' I felt the longtails were harder to tail grab than the ones I landed on my 6' jig stick but having the 20lb VM150 on a 7' rod gave me a second, heavier casting option in addition to the smaller 20lb stick. ( I carry 3 rods normally)

Rather than graphite travel rods you could go fibreglass on your trolling stick and just strap it to the side of the yak coming in. Graphite can be fairly fragile rolling round in the hull with your other kit when your in the surf zone.

On drag, Ill wager most dont fight the fish with more than 4-5kg (most likely 2-3kg) for fear of losing the fish due to poor knots or pulling the hooks from the fish's mouth. Your kayak plays a major role in fighting the fish. Point the nose towards the fish and it will tow you km out whilst not working too hard. Use your pedals to turn the OB side on and the fish works a whole lot harder without adding additional strain on your expensive gear. I also use the pedals to get in front of the fish and turn its head throughout the fight. This confuses them and allows you to fight the fish in a 500m square. During the final circling stage I then use the pedals to plane the fish up in the water column when I cant apply enough pressure with the lighter gear to bring the fish to the surface. AT this point, rather than tightening the drag and risk losing the fish on its final burst of energy, I back it off a bit and palm the spool when lifting the fish. By dropping the rod tip and lightening the palm pressure on the spool you can deal with the fishes final bursts of strength without giving up line and allowing them to gain confidence.

See you on the water.


Thanks for that Paulo. The advice re: fighting them is awesome, I had been concerned about my ability to get a fish that heavy up to the kayak if they stopped running. I hadn't considered breaking up their swim pattern using the kayak but it makes a great deal of sense.

The current setup I was using was my stradic ci4 as the lighter outfit. I have 20lb on the spool for this and it was matched up with the permit trek spin model of those fox rods. Casting distance was ok, retrieve speed too. I'm happy with taking this outfit out as the lighter oufit and it feels comfortable in the hand and breaks down to 4 pieces which I stow inside the hull. There currently isn't anything else inside the hull of my kayak (no transducer) for it to bounce into and being graphite it is nice and light.

The second rod I've been using was a cheap overhead combo I purchased many years ago. While it might do the job, it's not ideal. The short rod did make moving the rod around the kayak much easier, but I'm not confident on the drag or that the reel would survive multiple kayak outings. This is what I'm looking to replace.

I like the idea of breaking it down into trolling and casting rods, I can see that covers a lot of ground. I bit the bullet and ordered the VM150 last night as at that price it seems too good to pass up and I love the durability of their reels. I now have to find a suitable rod to pair this with. I will probably look for a rod in 6-7 foot length. If I can find a travel rod that does this, I will definitely consider this but I'm going to wait for now until I have the VM150 in hand to get a feel for its weight.

Thanks for putting in such a detailed response.

billpatt wrote:I have a Shimano Sienna 4000 reel that matches up really well to a Wilson Pelagic Spin rod 7ft. I can cast a slug around 50m, and it has landed some smaller pedros (70-90cm) and my PB spot of 98cm this year.
Handled all these fish like a dream. I have it spooled with 15lb line and 20lb leader. All this for $150.


Cheers Bill,
I have a symetre I took out on my first trip and it's a sturdy little reel. Most of the shimanos from the sienna up seem very well built for the price and I think the Ci4 I have on the lighter setup should be up to the fight as well. That first longtail I hooked does seem to have buggered the ratchet though :lol:
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Re: Putting together a heavier spin outfit

Postby imnotoriginal » Thu May 24, 2012 6:25 pm

Lazybugger wrote:I'll second what Paulo said.

My outfits for Brays are:

Stradic Ci4 4000 with a 3-6kgPfleuger Patriarch XTR rod
Daiwa Ballistic 4000 and a 4-8kg Daiwa Spellbinder rod
Sienna 2500 and a 2-4kg Berkley Dropshot rod
TLD15 with standard shimano combo rod (can't recall name)
Daiwa Crest 4000 combo (BCF special)

I've only had the Ci4 4000 combo a couple of months but its really nice so far. Hooked up to a few longtails on plastics but they've thrown the hooks or busted me off. I only got the Ballistic yesterday and will be taking it out next time. The red and black on the ballistic reel matches very nicely to the red and black on the spellbinder. :D I think both of these combo's will be fine for plastic fishing for snaps/grassies plus handle any speedsters that come along. I am running 20lb powerpro on both. I won't be targeting longtails on the stradic combo but I think it will handle it if the sitiation arises.

The Dropshot combo will be retired in favour of the Ballistic I think. I've using this for plastics and its fine for the common 35-50cm snaps and grassies you encounter at Brays. The Crest reel is starting to get a little salt weary and is due for a service. I've been using this to tow a second lure but having been tangled on longtails and losing one, I think I'll go back to one trolling line out at a time. This combo & the dropshot will be spares for anyone who wants to use the tempo.

All of the Tuna I've landed this year have been on the TLD15. Its loaded with 30lb mono. I use this combo to troll halcos but will probably start putting out a floating pilly for snaps with it as winter really hits and pelagics fully disappear.


Cheers for that. What halcos are you trolling for the longtails?
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