NSW - Lifejacket reforms begin this weekend (1st Nov 2010)

[patwah]

P.S. Why is it you can't ride a bicycle without a helmet but you can jump out of an aeroplane without any head protection? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Dont reckon theres much that will save you from 20,000ft

[spooled1]

Irrespective of the statistical merits supporting the legislation, I'm sickened by the fact that we Australians are sacrificing our own personal freedoms at every opportunity. Compared to America, our rights as individuals are being eroded to the point where this is becoming a facist regime. As Aussie citizens, we don't have a US constitutional 1st and 4th amendment to rely on when Government decides to slug us with dehumanising laws that compromise our human sensibilities. I've had an absolute gutfull of these kinds of rules and regulations. For yakkers and the wearing of PFDs this is a classic example. If I choose to wear a PFD, that should be my choice because it's my body and I should have a right to choose what to wear on any given day. If surf conditions are favorable or unfavorable for the wearing of a PFD during transit, my view is that the paddler should have the ultimate right to make that decision - especially in the surf zone. While fishing, I generally choose to wear a PFD. I don't need a stupid law to tell me to do something that makes sense.

[Ado]

Why is it you can't ride a bicycle without a helmet but you can jump out of an aeroplane without any head protection? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

My (limited) understanding is that you do need to wear a helmet for your first 100 jumps. It's then optional. I agree that this seems rediculous, as most jumping injuries and fatalities occur due to poor landings rather than chute failure. More rediculous still is that you are able to rock climb without a helmet, and most people do. It may have something to do with the number and experience of the people that undertake these activities. If it's mainstream, and therefore people don't get mentored into the activity (i.e. fully understand the risks), then there is more likelihood of people being killed by their own ignorance. Generally speaking, the more experienced that people are in risky activities, the LESS risk they take. It's the more experienced climbers that wear helmets. Making it mandatory would therefore be a good idea.

The best thing about making it mandatory is that it takes away the rediculous stigma of playing it safe.

Making comparisons is not particularly useful. The point that there are VERY good reasons to wear a pfd when kayaking and very few good reasons not to. Therefore, making it compulsory should have very little effect because rational people will be doing it anyway.

[mal.com]

its gonna be fun paddling my surfboard while wearing a pfd...

This is where it gets nanny-state-ish, the people who deliberately go looking for breaking waves are exempt, ie. surfers & those on surf skis while the people who basically avoid rough conditions & only go out when its pretty well flat calm have to wear jackets.

And another thing, I'm a ocean swimmer, I compete regularly in 2-3km ocean races, I'm an active member of the local surf club. I generally fish less than 500-750m from any beach, I'f my kayak suddenly sinks out at sea, what do I do, float around like a dummy or take off the life jacket & swim home.

Like a friend of mine in Bali says "Australia's a nice place, but there's too many rules in Australia".

cheers

Mal de mer

[Tarkman]

I have a decent one for the YAK. It's only Type II though. but it's designed for Yaks. It's going to be a pain wearing a PFD on the boat though, looks like I might have to buy the inflatable type which I don't like because you have to keep servicing them. My boat is 4.7 metres and moving around it with two blokes in it is difficult enough as it is without the lifejacket on although we always have them close. Plus I'll have to wash all the Fishy smells and blood off it every time.

Someone needs to come up with a decent lifeshirt with enough boyancy to make it TYPE 1 but less bulk so that it is easy to move around in.

My kids HAVE ALWAYS worn life jackets when on any watercraft.

The problem I have is that we are totally over-regulated. We SHOULD have enough brains to work out when we need a lifejacket on and when we don't based on the advice of professionals. We are eliminating Darwin's theory by not allowing the STUPID to die and hence in about 4 or 5 generations we will be overrun by numskulls! (or has that already happened?)

[MrX]

Nanny State: “A state whose government institutions are authoritative and over-paternalistic, interfering with and controlling people's lives.”

I can live with some good old paternalistic regulation every now and then - requiring the reckless among us to exercise some basic common sense. Sure, it upsets some who are opposed to any regulation of our God given rights, and when it saves lives it defies Darwin’s laws, but overall there must be some benefits for society.

I don’t mind my nanny state making some basic safety items compulsory – like wearing seat belts in cars, helmets on motorbikes, pfd’s on kayaks etc.

The new regs are hardly a draconian police state measures. Why the need to exaggerate the restrictions, and complain by tilting at windmills, beating up the straw man etc?

A PFD is required for Canoes & Kayaks:
- On enclosed waters more than 100 m from shore.
- On open waters at all times…

What does that mean?
“Open waters” means navigable waters which are not enclosed waters.
“Enclosed waters” means any port or inland navigable waters in New South Wales.

Davey wrote:
“its gonna be fun paddling my surfboard while wearing a pfd...”

Feel free to wear your pfd on your surfboard, Davey. But you don’t have to – Nanny doesn’t require it.

Spooled wrote:
“I wonder how the latest muscle flex from our Nanny state will affect the SLSC's and their surf ski comps. So far I haven't seen any legislation that provides exemptions for them.”

An interesting question, and not adequately dealt with on NSW Maritime’s site – so it’s open to confusion. The SLSC’s should be organised enough to know the answers.

Is a “surf ski” considered to be a “kayak” by the NSWM? If not, no PFD required, and SLSC’s have no concerns. End of story.

However, if a “surf ski” is considered to be a “kayak” (or canoe), then a PFD is required only in open “navigable waters”. What does “navigable waters” mean? This term is not defined on the NSWM site, but the surf zone probably not “navigable”. A surf skier in the surf zone not required to wear a pfd, as he is not on open navigable waters (or on enclosed waters more than 100 m from shore).

Bottom line: there are no requirement to wear your PFD while in the surf zone, even on a kayak (or canoe).

But what is the rule when surf-skier is on his “kayak/canoe” in navigable waters outside the surf zone? Better ask the SLSC.

[Digger]

"hence in about 4 or 5 generations we will be overrun by numskulls! (or has that already happened?)"

Sorry it's happened already....they're "running" the joint!!

R

[yankatthebay]

all good, us people in Adventures are exempt from that rule by 8cm (length is 4.88m).

Looking at the FAQs, the AI could be classed as an "Off the Beach Sailing Vessel", which means you have to wear a PFD at all times. http://www.maritime.nsw.gov.au/wh/lifej ... qs.html#15

I was not being serious, was trying to make a joke out of the 8cm difference. I have never been on my kayak without a PFD.

[kraley]

Irrespective of the statistical merits supporting the legislation, I'm sickened by the fact that we Australians are sacrificing our own personal freedoms at every opportunity. Compared to America, our rights as individuals are being eroded to the point where this is becoming a facist regime. As Aussie citizens, we don't have a US constitutional 1st and 4th amendment to rely on when Government decides to slug us with dehumanising laws that compromise our human sensibilities. I've had an absolute gutfull of these kinds of rules and regulations. For yakkers and the wearing of PFDs this is a classic example. If I choose to wear a PFD, that should be my choice because it's my body and I should have a right to choose what to wear on any given day. If surf conditions are favorable or unfavorable for the wearing of a PFD during transit, my view is that the paddler should have the ultimate right to make that decision - especially in the surf zone. While fishing, I generally choose to wear a PFD. I don't need a stupid law to tell me to do something that makes sense.

Not having an independent judiciary as well as the lack of a bill of rights is indeed the biggest difference I notice between the two political systems. However - despite the libertarian protections of the US constitution - the pfd issue would be one where both the 1st and 4th amendments wouldn't keep the states from regulating behaviour such. In fact, most states would have much more draconian laws than what is being proposed in NSW. The amendments do give you protection from things like random breath tests, and they would make it so you could watch a TV show about a crime family in the actual state where they committed their acts.

I find the US to be largely less concerned with legistlating safety than Australia for a very different set of legal circumstance. Australia has a much more limited Tort law system than the US which tends to limit civil liability. In other terms, its much easier to sue for damages in the US than in Australia. This fear of legal liability leads to a much greater restrictions on individual behaviour than could ever be imagined by regulatory codes.

Believe me, you would feel much more constrained in your everyday, adventure seeking life in the US than you would in Australia. But it would be driven by fear of lack of insurance, not fear of gendarmes.

[chris58]

its like this no one needs to have a jacket on,
UNLESS things go wrong then try getting into it. eg if some nut case hits you in their boat, your ticker plays up, tip over and hit your head the list goes on, you may not be able to save yourself. too late then....

[StevenM]

I dont care what rules they have you are crazy not to wear a pfd while kayaking on any water, the same as a car its not my own failings I fear but those of the ignorant others who may claim my life in the process.

Cheers Dave

Dave

you wear your PFD in your car?

now that is safe.

[kraley]

I dont care what rules they have you are crazy not to wear a pfd while kayaking on any water, the same as a car its not my own failings I fear but those of the ignorant others who may claim my life in the process.

Cheers Dave

Dave

you wear your PFD in your car?

now that is safe.

Ridiculous argument.

Are there ever circumstances where people need to be compelled to act in their own self interest?

If so, when?

[MrX]

“Ridiculous argument. Are there ever circumstances where people need to be compelled to act in their own self interest? If so, when? ”

I agree, Ken. There are countless circumstances. People respond to compulsion. Compelling you to wear a seltbelt in your car is just an obvious example. Ever been in a country where selt belts are not compulsory? Nobody buckles up, and the cabbies laugh at you when you try to. Minor prangs = severe head/neck injury.

Now in NSW, the nanny state requires you to wear a pfd on your yak when you go offshore, or more than 100 metres from shore in the harbour. Why? If it is not compulsory, many won’t do it, even when it is in their own self interest. Stats support the arguement that this will save a few lives (and upset a few people).

[Southerly]

Hi all,

Good point to remember is. Last time you put a PFD on, you were probably standing up on dry land. I must say, I have never tried to don one in the water. What i can say is, I have enough difficulty getting it on whilst standing, surrounded by air. I would expect i would fail to secure it, whilst in the water. Good enough reason to wear a PFD before getting afloat.

Cheers all Andybear

Good point Andy, when I was boating offshore every day in my own stinky I had a couple of floats with loops of rope attached to them in case I ended up in the drink unexpectly. You are 100% right, in the water in any sort of sea the best you can do is hang on to a life jacket you are not already wearing (far better than not having one though), that is why boaters are encouraged to have a grab bag and man overboard bag very handy. I used to put a PFD on if crossing a bar, in bad seas at night and any other time I thought there was a likely probability of taking a swim unexpectedly.

In the yak I would never put to sea without my PFD as the likleyhood of taking a swim is alwyas high, though I usually fish inshore or Syd Harbour.

David

[yakattack]

PFDs for me no problem seems a sensible choice really have always nearly worn one offshore never inside as yet but all makes sense for safer experience for every one. I dont mind sensible safe rules if it means it can save just one life at some stage all good. We all think nothing will ever happen to us but guess what as the saying goes shit happens. Stay safe enjoy your kayak fishing adventure and go home to whoever you go home to.
Thats it from me safe yakkin to all

Cheers Micka